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1000 ‎Rochester Hills Dr‎. ‎

Rochester Hills, MI ‎

48309‎

(‎248‎) ‎656‎-‎4600‎

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Rochester Hills

Minutes

Planning Commission ‎/ ‎City Council ‎

Joint Meeting‎

7:00 PM

1000 Rochester Hills Drive

Tuesday, May 29, 2012

CALL TO ORDER

Chairperson William Boswell called the Special Joint Meeting to order at ‎

7‎:‎00 ‎p‎.‎m‎. ‎in the Auditorium‎.‎

ROLL CALL

Present Planning Commission‎: ‎

Chairperson William Boswell‎

Vice Chairperson Deborah Brnabic‎

Members Gerard Dettloff‎

Dale Hetrick‎

Greg Hooper‎

Nicholas Kaltsounis ‎

David Reece‎

C‎. ‎Neall Schroder‎

Emmet Yukon‎

Present City Council‎: ‎

President Greg Hooper‎

Representatives Nathan Klomp‎

Adam Kochenderfer‎

James Rosen‎

Mark Tisdel‎

Ravi Yalamanchi‎

Absent City Council‎: ‎

Vice President Michael Webber‎

Quorum Present for Each Body‎

‎

Also Present‎: ‎Ed Anzek, Planning and Economic Development Director‎

James Breuckman, Manager of Planning‎

Maureen Gentry, Recording Secretary‎

COMMUNICATIONS

A‎) ‎Letter from John Staran, dated May ‎24‎, ‎2012 ‎re‎: ‎Medical Marihuana‎

B‎) ‎Memo from James Breuckman, dated May ‎29‎, ‎2012 ‎re‎: ‎Small Area ‎

Planning Program‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek passed out a letter from Mr‎. ‎Staran, and he noted that he and ‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman had met with him last week to discuss the status of the ‎

medical marihuana issue in Michigan‎. ‎They had asked Mr‎. ‎Staran for an ‎

opinion and direction for going forward, and the letter summed up where ‎

the State and Federal governments and Attorney General stood, and ‎

talked about court cases underway‎. ‎He advised that the Planning ‎

Commission would take it up at its June ‎5‎, ‎2012 ‎meeting, since the ‎

Moratorium expired June ‎20‎, ‎2012‎, and the members would discuss it ‎

further under Open Discussion‎.‎

PUBLIC COMMENT

Chairperson Boswell stated that both bodies were very open to hearing ‎

from anyone in the audience, and he noted that one person was present‎. ‎

He asked if she would like to speak‎. ‎The audience member declined, ‎

and indicated that she was present to observe and listen, but thanked ‎

Chairperson Boswell‎.‎

DISCUSSION

2012-0143

Presentation of Land Value Analysis‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek thanked Mr‎. ‎Hooper for suggesting, about five months ago, ‎

that it would be a good thing for the Planning Commission and City ‎

Council to have a joint meeting‎. ‎He recalled that the last joint meeting ‎

was on April ‎17‎, ‎2007‎, so it had been five years‎. ‎Staff had been working ‎

on the Master Land Use Plan Update, the Complete Streets Program with ‎

the State, and more, and there were a lot of things to talk about in regards ‎

to the future of land use‎. ‎He was glad they were holding the meeting, and ‎

he hoped to hear from everyone, because it would give direction to Staff ‎

as they brought studies and ordinance changes forward‎. ‎It was his hope ‎

to meet more than every five years in the future‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek advised that Mr‎. ‎Breuckman had been working on the Land ‎

Value Analysis for quite some time‎. ‎Ever since Mr‎. ‎Breuckman joined ‎

the City, he had been studying history, uses in the City and had been ‎

learning more about the community‎’‎s value and what value does to the ‎

community in terms of revenue‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman had done a significant ‎

dive into Assessment records of properties in the City and in Rochester, ‎

and he put together a report they would pass out after the meeting‎. ‎The ‎

group moved to the front seats of the Auditorium to watch the ‎

presentation‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman agreed that the project started out as a kernel of an idea ‎

and grew as he got more into it‎. ‎He wanted to find out where market ‎

values in the City were high and low and how it compared to other ‎

communities‎. ‎He wanted to learn where the City was excelling and where ‎

it could do even better‎. ‎The point of the study was not to be a criticism or ‎

value judgment or even a pat on the back, but it was to take the ‎

temperature and see what was working and if something was not‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman explained that market value was an indicator of worth ‎- ‎

what someone wanted to pay for something they valued‎. ‎When looking at ‎

how the City and a farm operated, he found that it was fundamentally the ‎

same‎. ‎The revenues came from the farm in the form of livestock and ‎

plants grown, and for the City, it was the property taxes collected for every ‎

acre in the City‎. ‎The farmer measured revenues on a per‎-‎acre yield ‎

basis ‎- ‎such as $‎145 ‎for wheat and $‎315 ‎for soybeans and $‎1‎.‎6 ‎million an ‎

acre for marihuana‎. ‎The City had to choose a crop to plant‎. ‎Walgreen‎’‎s, ‎

Kohl‎’‎s, The Village of Rochester Hills and downtown Rochester were ‎

similar commercial uses for each City, but they had different yields‎. ‎He ‎

looked at various uses and tried to figure out where it was that things were ‎

excelling and where there were opportunities to adjust for the future‎. ‎The ‎

farm could be rotated annually or semi‎-‎annually; for a City, it rotated ‎

slowly‎. ‎Commercial development turned over every ‎15‎-‎20 ‎years, ‎

industrial turned every ‎30 ‎years, and office turned every ‎30‎-‎50 ‎years‎. ‎If a ‎

single‎-‎family home was constructed, it was there for ‎150 ‎years‎. ‎It was ‎

more difficult for a City to be able to react to changing market conditions, ‎

and he felt it was important to continuously take a temperature and see ‎

where the opportunities were to guide future infill development‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman observed that all the easy greenfield sites were gone, and ‎

infill and regeneration was left, and they had to determine how to handle ‎

that‎. ‎He referred to High Specialization Costs, and explained that it was ‎

where purpose‎-‎built buildings were only good for one thing‎. ‎When that ‎

one thing went away, they would be stuck with an albatross that was ‎

expensive to turn over‎. ‎He next discussed Assessment Methods, and ‎

said that the whole study was based on assessed value, which was half of ‎

market value‎. ‎There were residential comparisons and non‎-‎residential ‎

comparisons, and the productivity of the property was how it was ‎

assessed‎. ‎The City valued everything per acre, which was important ‎

because if there was a two‎-‎acre strip mall or Wal‎-‎Mart, they were very ‎

different on a per acre basis, but they might have similar yields‎.‎

The study looked at Rochester and Rochester Hills‎. ‎The City had ‎

Rochester data programmed into its system‎. ‎Both cities were two of the ‎

premier communities of their types‎. ‎Rochester Hills was a suburban ‎

community with larger lots, natural features, and he remarked that it was ‎

blessed‎. ‎Rochester was a traditional downtown community and among ‎

the southeast Michigan downtown communities, it also excelled‎. ‎He ‎

looked at sustainability ‎- ‎that is, operating in a stable manner into an ‎

uncertain future‎. ‎The City had legacy costs and things that had to be ‎

maintained, and when growth slowed, it had to pay the bills based on the ‎

City‎’‎s yearly income‎. ‎That was a critical factor going forward into the ‎

second and third life cycle of infrastructure‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman indicated that after that introduction of the study, the first ‎

category he wished to point out was commercial and mixed‎-‎use‎. ‎He ‎

showed selected sites within the City and their assessed values per acre‎. ‎

He felt that it was interesting that Barclay Square, a two‎-‎acre strip mall at ‎

the corner of Barclay Circle and Rochester Rd‎.‎, was the highest value per ‎

acre retail center in the City‎. ‎The Village of Rochester Hills and Papa ‎

Joe‎’‎s were the second and third highest at $‎916‎,‎000 ‎and $‎668‎,‎000 ‎per ‎

acre‎. ‎Going down the value scale, Wal‎-‎Mart was a $‎281‎,‎000 ‎value, auto ‎

dealers were $‎218‎,‎000‎, and Hampton Village was at $‎87‎,‎000 ‎per acre, ‎

which gave an idea of the relative value‎. ‎If they added Rochester ‎

properties to the list, some in downtown were over $‎5 ‎million per acre‎. ‎

Downtown Rochester as a whole was valued at $‎1‎.‎3 ‎million per acre‎. ‎

The next table looked at some of the characteristics of the higher value ‎

retail centers‎. ‎Floor area ratio was one of the strongly correlating factors ‎

with value per acre‎. ‎It was the amount of square footage that could be let ‎

for rent or lease, divided by the land area‎. ‎In downtown Rochester, the ‎

floor areas equaled ‎57‎% ‎of the land area, which he felt was a very efficient ‎

use of the land‎. ‎In Rochester Hills, in the more suburban models with ‎

more parking, it was ‎25‎%-‎22‎%‎, and Hampton Village, with the lowest ‎

value per acre, only used ‎16‎% ‎for floor area‎. ‎He referred to parking ratio, ‎

and showed parking spaces per ‎1‎,‎000 ‎square feet‎. ‎Downtown Rochester ‎

required one space for every ‎500 ‎square feet of floor area‎. ‎The Village ‎

had ‎4‎.‎12 ‎spaces per ‎1‎,‎000 ‎square feet and Hampton Village had ‎7 ‎

spaces per ‎1‎,‎000 ‎square feet‎. ‎He stated that the reason he included floor ‎

area ratio and parking was because although they measured the same ‎

thing to some extent, they were the most strongly correlated ‎

characteristics with value per acre‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman talked about community centers, which were anchored by ‎

a grocery store with a restaurant or other types of uses‎. ‎He compared ‎

Papa Joe‎’‎s and North Hill Center, which were across the street from each ‎

other‎. ‎Both were about ten acres with ‎100‎,‎000 ‎or so square feet in floor ‎

area‎. ‎Papa Joe‎’‎s had a value of $‎668‎,‎000 ‎per acre, and the North Hill ‎

Center had $‎286‎,‎000 ‎per acre‎. ‎Parking ratios were different, but not too ‎

much that it would explain the variances‎. ‎It meant that it was probably a ‎

combination of design and parking‎. ‎Design was an unquantifiable ‎

element, but it existed, and he felt that it was a good example‎.‎

Another place where design and location showed up was Barclay Square, ‎

which had about two acres‎. ‎He chose ‎137 ‎W‎. ‎Auburn to compare it to, ‎

because it was in the same neighborhood‎. ‎It was the small retail center ‎

on Auburn a little west of Rochester Rd‎. ‎on the south side of the street‎. ‎

The building area was the same, the floor area was essentially the same, ‎

the parking ratio was almost identical, but the value per acre was ‎

$‎500‎,‎000 ‎different‎. ‎He felt that spoke to design‎. ‎Barclay Square had ‎

some high profile tenants that were attracted to location and design‎. ‎

He noted ‎138 ‎S‎. ‎Main Street, which was the center in the very south edge ‎

of downtown Rochester‎. ‎That was a case where the parking ratio and floor ‎

area ratio probably explained a lot of the difference‎. ‎He compared it with ‎

1292 ‎W‎. ‎Auburn, which was a newer and fairly attractive retail center west ‎

of Livernois‎. ‎His conclusion was that parking did not pay, and good ‎

design did pay, and being walkable paid‎. ‎The Village of Rochester Hills, ‎

Papa Joe‎’‎s, to an extent, and downtown Rochester were all evidence of ‎

that‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman stated that he was not saying parking should be ‎

eliminated altogether, but that it was a balancing act‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman maintained that it was the same for office‎. ‎Rochester ‎

office was quite highly valued‎. ‎Rochester Hills‎’ ‎office properties were ‎

higher if they were medical office‎. ‎Banks and general offices brought up ‎

the rear, although the spread between the bottom and the top was much ‎

less‎. ‎He looked at the Morgan Stanley building on North Main Street in ‎

Rochester, across from the gas station, and ‎950 ‎and ‎800 ‎W‎. ‎University, ‎

which were in the Crittenton sphere of influence‎. ‎In Rochester Hills, he ‎

looked at ‎75 ‎Barclay Circle, the recently renovated building close to ‎

Rochester Rd‎.‎, and at one of the newer South Boulevard offices‎. ‎There ‎

was a high correlation between floor area and value per acre and also ‎

parking per ‎1‎,‎000 ‎square feet‎. ‎In Rochester, it was around three to four ‎

spaces per ‎1‎,‎000 ‎square feet‎. ‎1955 ‎W‎. ‎Hamlin, which was a Class C ‎

office building just to the east of the Paint Creek Trail, had quite a high ‎

value because it had a lower parking per ‎1‎,‎000 ‎square‎-‎foot ratio‎. ‎He felt ‎

that the parking per ‎1‎,‎000 ‎square‎-‎foot ratio worked better with small ‎

buildings‎. ‎He believed that for the larger office buildings, higher parking ‎

ratios were probably needed‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman said that he came to an interesting conclusion that ‎

“‎human‎-‎scale‎” ‎buildings seemed to fare better‎. ‎Those were buildings that ‎

did not have that suburban office park, stark, flat facade, but they had ‎

windows, doors and design features that made them feel and look ‎

accessible to a human being‎. ‎Also, buildings that were located a little ‎

closer to the street, with perhaps a ‎15‎-‎25 ‎foot setback, with a green lawn ‎

in‎-‎between rather than parking went along with the human scale design‎. ‎

There was a lot of that on University leading into downtown Rochester‎. ‎

There was a nice feel, and those buildings had higher values than ‎

comparable ones in other locations‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman stated that industrial was a homogenous supply, and ‎

there was not much to talk about‎. ‎It was $‎80‎-‎$‎250‎,‎000 ‎an acre, ‎

depending on what kind of industrial they were talking about‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman next showed a table of the highest valued residential ‎

neighborhoods sorted by average lot value‎. ‎The top were typically in the ‎

northern tier of the City, and the number of lots in each was quite low‎. ‎

They were large lots and low density subdivisions, and there was a high ‎

average lot value‎. ‎Walnut Brook Estates was the first larger residential ‎

development with homes of high value‎. ‎When he looked at value per ‎

acre, the Rochester neighborhoods started to pop up‎. ‎In Hawthorne ‎7 ‎

and Autumn Hills, off of John R, the lot areas ranged between ‎10‎-‎13‎,‎000 ‎

square feet‎. ‎The houses were bigger and nicer, but they were on smaller ‎

lots with higher value per acre‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman showed a series of charts‎. ‎The first was a plot of the ‎

average lot area within each residential neighborhood against the ‎

average value of the lot in that neighborhood‎. ‎There were two trend lines, ‎

one that went out at a lower slope and one that extended at a higher ‎

slope‎. ‎If they only looked at lots that were smaller than ‎50‎,‎000 ‎square ‎

feet, value went up on a one‎-‎to‎-‎one basis with lot area, until they got to ‎

27‎,‎500 ‎square feet, where it stopped and there was no more increase in ‎

value for lot area‎. ‎There was a second group, where there was no ‎

increase in value for additional lot area‎. ‎As some lots got larger, it ‎

allowed someone to put a bigger house on them‎. ‎The way our taxation ‎

system was set up, the house was more important in the assessed value ‎

of that lot than the actual land was‎. ‎As the lot area increased up to ‎27‎,‎500 ‎

square feet, the houses got bigger, and he suspected that once they got ‎

to the point where the average value per lot was over $‎400‎,‎000 ‎per acre, ‎

they hit the point where there was no more market for a bigger house‎. ‎

There was really no utility from a value standpoint to advocate for lots ‎

larger than ‎27‎,‎500 ‎square feet‎. ‎There might be good reasons for ‎

community character and vision for the community for having larger lots, ‎

but value was not supported as one of those reasons‎. ‎

Regarding value per acre, Mr‎. ‎Breuckman explained that there was a very ‎

strong relationship that as lots got larger, value per acre went down, which ‎

was an inverse, exponential relationship‎. ‎70‎% ‎of the variation in value ‎

per acre was explained by lot size‎. ‎There were outliers, which were the ‎

northern tier developments‎. ‎At ‎27‎,‎500 ‎square feet, value per acre ‎

maintained as the houses got bigger in proportion with the lot ‎- ‎up until ‎

the point where it did not increase any longer‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman reviewed conservation development ‎- ‎open space and ‎

natural features preservation ‎- ‎versus conventional development that was ‎

split into lots and a detention pond‎. ‎He complimented the City on the job ‎

it had done with preserving and integrating natural features into ‎

neighborhoods‎. ‎There was a ‎30‎-‎80‎% ‎premium for value per acre, as well ‎

as average lot value, between a conservation and a standard ‎

development‎. ‎That held at each density, and there was a definite ‎

premium‎. ‎He thought that was a great decision that had paid high ‎

dividends, and it had worked really well‎. ‎

In conclusion, Mr‎. ‎Breuckman summarized that large lots‎’ ‎benefits were ‎

limited or non‎-‎existent after ‎27‎,‎500 ‎square feet; house quality was a better ‎

value indicator than lot size for developments that were similar in plan ‎

view ‎- ‎the value difference came completely from the quality and design ‎

of the homes‎. ‎He stated that design guidelines, therefore, might be ‎

beneficial, particularly as the City worked with infill development that ‎

might be problematic‎. ‎Looking at the difficult, left‎-‎over parcels, regulation ‎

by density rather than lot size might result in better development‎. ‎There ‎

was a way to take the conservation development template and apply it to ‎

smaller, infill parcels‎. ‎Lot area had somewhat of a relationship, but not ‎

unnecessarily a relationship to value in conjunction with design ‎

guidelines and limits on density‎. ‎He did not mean allowing for increased ‎

density, but having more design flexibility‎. ‎That might help the City ‎

achieve better development on the smaller redevelopment and infill ‎

parcels that they would be looking at more and more going forward‎. ‎

In the areas where the City wanted very low density, there was a point ‎

where the yield per acre to the City was low around an acre, and it was ‎

limited to $‎100‎,‎000 ‎per acre‎. ‎That also meant that the yield per acre to ‎

the developer was low‎. ‎When the City asked developers to do one‎-‎acre ‎

lots and also asked them to put in infrastructure that was the same as any ‎

subdivision that had half‎-‎acre or quarter‎-‎acre lots, he questioned how ‎

someone could pay for the infrastructure and how the City could pay to ‎

maintain it ‎30 ‎years down the road with tax revenues that were not high ‎

enough‎. ‎If the City really wanted to make lower density developments ‎

feasible, they needed to look at lower infrastructure requirements for ‎

those‎. ‎Roads were the main part; they probably did not need ‎27‎-‎foot wide ‎

roads and sidewalks‎. ‎He felt that the City should probably be looking at a ‎

more rural, lower impact and less expensive road standard, and one that ‎

would fit in more with the rural and natural features character of the areas‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman stressed that the presentation was meant to be ‎

informative and instructive, and that he was not advocating any particular ‎

development style‎. ‎He did not want to portray that they should put ‎

downtown Rochester everywhere‎. ‎There was a limited market for all of ‎

those things, but there were some commonalities they could look at as ‎

they went forward and regulated and encouraged development to happen‎. ‎

They had to make sure their overall package was holistic and supportive ‎

of each other, but one that unlocked stranded value‎. ‎The Meijer on ‎

Rochester Road had a value of $‎78‎,‎000 ‎per acre‎. ‎It was ripe for ‎

redevelopment, so making sure the City did it right was important‎. ‎

Modeling some of the higher value places as the template as to what ‎

should happen was a good strategy for guiding redevelopment‎. ‎There ‎

were many models to choose from, and they could pick the ones that ‎

suited their tastes, but he encouraged concentration on the high value ‎

places‎. ‎

Regarding next steps, Mr‎. ‎Breuckman pointed out the revenue portion, ‎

and said that there was a cost services portion as well‎. ‎10‎,‎000 ‎

square‎-‎foot residential lots generated a lot more per acre, but at the same ‎

time, there were more people, houses and cost of services‎. ‎They needed ‎

to look at the cost of services to see where those breaks were, and to see ‎

where they were coming out ahead or further behind as a public entity‎. ‎

Right‎-‎sizing parking was a process they had started, but that was ‎

something they should keep doing and keep reviewing‎. ‎He added that ‎

design standards were very valuable to guide redevelopment and new ‎

infill development‎. ‎They might want to look at the office districts again for ‎

some design and setback standards and also seriously consider lower ‎

infrastructure design standards for low density residential‎. ‎

Chairperson Boswell thanked Mr‎. ‎Breuckman for the presentation‎. ‎He ‎

joked that the study was something he usually looked at before he went to ‎

bed to help him sleep, but he said that he could see where this one would ‎

really come in very handy for the Planning Commission and City ‎

Council, who looked at the monetary aspects‎. ‎The Planning Commission ‎

looked at design and other variables‎. ‎Chairperson Boswell assured that ‎

he was looking forward to reading it in detail‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek complimented Mr‎. ‎Breuckman for looking into this issue‎. ‎He ‎

felt that it was a fresh and different look, and it was something the City had ‎

not done‎. ‎When he saw the figures for the values of properties and ‎

developments with conservation measures added, he thought to thank ‎

the people who came before him in the ‎1980‎’‎s who started Wetlands and ‎

Tree Conservation preservation‎. ‎It had really paid off, even though it ‎

might not have been the original intent‎. ‎In the public opinion survey the ‎

City did, the number one reason people moved to Rochester Hills was ‎

the environment‎. ‎As they went forward with some of the tougher sites, ‎

they might have to get a little creative on how buildings should be placed ‎

and how big they could be, and not worry about the size of a lot‎. ‎They ‎

should perhaps be more concerned about density for the overall acreage ‎

and how they could make it work‎. ‎Chairperson Boswell said that he had a ‎

feeling they would be using the report for years to come‎.‎

Discussed

2012-0142

Master Land Use Plan Update ‎2012‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek reminded that the last Master Land Use Plan ‎(‎MLUP‎) ‎was ‎

adopted in ‎2007‎. ‎Every five years, the City was State‎-‎mandated to do an ‎

update or a new Plan‎. ‎Staff wished to hear from the members as to how ‎

they felt it had served the City‎’‎s purposes‎. ‎The one driving factor of the ‎

2007 ‎Plan was to work toward neighborhood stability, which had brought ‎

about the Residential Estate zoning‎. ‎He did not see a reason to address ‎

that‎. ‎He felt that the demographics were good, and they could do a quick ‎

update from the ‎2010 ‎census‎. ‎Staff felt that most of the update could be ‎

handled in house‎. ‎He did not think it involved a massive re‎-‎write; he ‎

thought they could reread it and see if there was something that needed ‎

changing after some data analysis‎. ‎They had completed some plans that ‎

would become part of the MLUP ‎- ‎the M‎-‎59 ‎Corridor Plan and the ‎

Rochester Road Access Management Study‎. ‎They felt that the ‎

Complete Streets Policy would go more towards the Master Thoroughfare ‎

Plan when it would be updated in two years‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Kaltsounis remarked that it was hard to believe that it had been five ‎

years since they met and since the Plan was updated‎. ‎When they ‎

approached it in ‎2007‎, the previous Master Plan had served a different ‎

point in time ‎- ‎it was done in ‎1998‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek added that the ‎1990 ‎Plan ‎

was probably even the bigger effort‎. ‎In ‎1998‎, there was an update with ‎

some refinements to the Rochester Road Corridor‎. ‎The ‎2007 ‎Plan was a ‎

total re‎-‎write‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Kaltsounis agreed it was significant, and he felt that a lot ‎

of it was pertinent‎. ‎He thought that it was interesting that Mr‎. ‎Breuckman ‎

had discussed parking, because that was important in the ‎2007 ‎Plan‎. ‎

Parking for Hampton Village put it at the bottom for value‎. ‎In downtown ‎

Rochester, people could not find parking on some days‎. ‎Papa Joe‎’‎s and ‎

others were in the middle, and he felt those were closer to what the MLUP ‎

required‎. ‎He observed that the City had gone through an amazing ‎

turnaround in the housing market since ‎2008‎. ‎He thought that for the ‎

future of the City, they needed to assess which way housing should go ‎- ‎

the zoning‎. ‎He felt that they needed to take a look at those details in the ‎

update and make recommendations‎. ‎Because the market had been hit ‎

hard for so long, foreclosed properties were starting to get picked up, and ‎

new developments would be in competition‎. ‎They would have to ‎

recommend what the City needed to move forward‎. ‎He agreed that the ‎

update could be handled in house‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Rosen recalled some of the history the City had that dated back to the ‎

late ‎1970‎’‎s and early ‎1980‎’‎s‎. ‎In the mid to late ‎1970‎’‎s, the Township ‎

Supervisor, Earl Borden, and people like Billie Ireland, wanted to fill a ‎

niche‎. ‎The niche they wanted to fill was a relatively less expensive ‎

Bloomfield Hills‎/‎Grosse Point, because of the growing population of ‎

middle management in the auto companies‎. ‎He mentioned that the ‎

Grosse Point News was available in newsstands in Rochester Hills until ‎

about ten years ago ‎- ‎it was that strong of a draw‎. ‎The original planning ‎

was to be a mostly residential, limited commercial and modest industrial ‎

kind of bedroom community‎. ‎He reiterated the concept of ‎“‎bedroom ‎

community‎.‎” ‎Back then, people drove ‎30‎-‎40 ‎miles, and they did not work ‎

at home on computers‎. ‎That type of planning was started in the ‎1980‎’‎s, ‎

and by the end of the ‎1980‎’‎s and into ‎1990‎, there was a very strong ‎

limited retail movement‎. ‎There was an entire growth study, which ‎

intentionally set out to take a look at how big the City should be, how ‎

dense it should be, how much retail there should be, and one of the main ‎

conclusions was that in ‎1990‎/‎1991‎, in the first significant Master Land ‎

Use Plan, they decided on ‎405 ‎acres retail‎. ‎That was going to be enough ‎

for the people in the City with a certain level for the surrounding ‎

neighbors‎. ‎He stated that the City had turned out exactly that way, and ‎

that was why they had a relatively smooth ride through the recession‎. ‎

Rochester Hills was a desirable community because of the open space, ‎

which preserved the character‎. ‎It was a big City that felt like a village or ‎

township‎. ‎People who lived here called it the environment‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Rosen felt that they were where they wanted to be in terms of Master ‎

Land Use planning‎. ‎He clarified that the City was close to ‎96‎% ‎built out, ‎

and Mr‎. ‎Anzek noted that there was a lot of acreage that was not ‎

buildable‎. ‎The City was trying to buy that land through the Green Space ‎

millage‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Rosen did not believe they needed another Master Land ‎

Use Plan that was different than what they had; they needed to make sure ‎

they did not change anything just for the sake of changing‎. ‎The City was ‎

hugely successful, and they got exactly what they wanted‎. ‎Everyone was ‎

thrilled to live there‎. ‎He thought the Plan might only need a couple of ‎

tweaks, if at all‎. ‎He was not sure about the Complete Streets Policy; it ‎

might be too late in the process‎. ‎To someone driving into a subdivision, ‎

there was a nice road, curb and gutter, perhaps sidewalks, and that was ‎

what they needed to work on to keep up the housing values‎. ‎That was ‎

where the money was for the City‎. ‎He noted that prior to the ‎2012 ‎update, ‎

he had been through three Master Plans, and it would be his third Master ‎

Thoroughfare Plan‎. ‎

Chairperson Boswell recalled that when he first joined the Planning ‎

Commission in ‎1990‎, the Master Land Use Plan was his introduction to ‎

planning‎. ‎He agreed that they had done pretty much exactly what they ‎

planned, and they had done well‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Hetrick said that it was great that a Plan came to fruition from a ‎

planning perspective‎. ‎Regarding being ‎96‎% ‎built out, from a land use ‎

point of view, he stated that they had to grapple with re‎-‎using land‎. ‎They ‎

had to determine what they could do to help that process stay true to their ‎

roots, yet still provide opportunities for re‎-‎development‎. ‎It seemed to him ‎

that the way traffic would flow would change how people commuted, and ‎

that would have some bearing on how land was used‎. ‎He wondered if ‎

they could leverage the Transportation Plan as it stood or whether they ‎

could consider a little bit of a pull ahead so they did a better job of ‎

defining some of the land issues‎. ‎He stated that things were changing, ‎

and people wanted to use land a little differently today‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek responded that during the last three years in some planning ‎

sessions in Lansing and in some things he had read, the question with ‎

transportation was about what served the uses next to roads and how big ‎

they needed to be, how wide the right‎-‎of‎-‎way needed to be, how they ‎

should calm traffic and how it should it flow, etc‎. ‎A lot of it was being ‎

re‎-‎invented by traffic engineers‎. ‎Engineering was a discipline that came ‎

with safety blinders‎. ‎Everything had to be safe, so they planned bigger, ‎

wider corridors‎. ‎They would talk about these issues with the review of the ‎

Master Land Use Plan and the Master Thoroughfare Plan‎. ‎They had ‎

seen what worked well in other communities‎. ‎He thought it would be a ‎

good idea to revisit the City‎’‎s Engineering Standards‎. ‎There was not ‎“‎one ‎

size fits all‎.‎” ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman had showed the more expensive ‎

developments, and they were built with ‎27‎-‎foot wide, curb and gutter ‎

streets with sidewalks, which added a lot of cost that did not get used‎. ‎The ‎

City might have to plow it, or they might decide to keep it private‎. ‎They ‎

would discuss a lot of those questions as they went forward‎. ‎He used to ‎

hear an argument about making people build private streets to public ‎

standards, and some day they would ask the City to take them over‎. ‎If ‎

people wanted the City to take a street over, they should have to pay to ‎

improve the street to City standards because they did not pay for it in the ‎

first place when they bought the lot to build the house‎. ‎They did not have ‎

to pay for a big road‎. ‎When he sat with a developer three years ago, the ‎

average cost per lot was $‎70‎,‎000‎, which included the road, water and ‎

sewer and sidewalks‎. ‎He stressed that it was a dilemma‎. ‎

Chairperson Boswell remembered a development south of Avon, on John ‎

R, and there was essentially a driveway for three homes, which turned into ‎

a major road‎. ‎The developer was locked into building it that way because ‎

of the Ordinance‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek noted a similar situation south of Hamlin, ‎

north of the overpass‎. ‎It was a big driveway built like a street‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek ‎

hoped they would discuss those types of things and try to come up with ‎

creative results while preserving the City‎’‎s character‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Kochenderfer agreed that the Master Plan had served the City very ‎

well over the last couple of decades‎. ‎He mentioned an issue City Council ‎

ran into about a month ago with parcels that were zoned RE ‎(‎Residential ‎

Estate ‎- ‎one‎-‎acre minimum lot sizes‎) ‎and Staff had asked that it be ‎

rezoned to R‎-‎1‎, which had ‎20‎,‎000‎-‎acre minimum lot sizes‎. ‎He wondered ‎

if the City had taken a hard look at the rest of the City to make sure there ‎

were no similar issues and if so, if they could catch it ahead of time‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎

Anzek said they could, as Staff time permitted‎. ‎Resources were limited, ‎

and they were getting busy‎. ‎He felt that it was something they could ‎

revisit‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Schroeder recalled that back in the ‎1970‎’‎s, the Road Commission ‎

handled the roads, and they did not do a very good job‎. ‎It was a real ‎

problem, and the Plat Act was weakly enforced, and developers did their ‎

own thing‎. ‎There was one development that had a brown clay private ‎

road, and the developer claimed it was gravel without stone‎. ‎Brooklwood ‎

Subdivision was another shining example‎. ‎The roads failed, and the City ‎

refused to take them‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek said that he did not doubt that, and there was always a reason ‎

why they built to standards, and they learned as they went‎. ‎They were ‎

dealing with a situation now with a Site Plan that was submitted as a ‎

concept and it looked really good‎. ‎The applicants appeared before the ‎

Planning Commission at one time; it was located by John R and School‎. ‎

There was a big boulevard down the middle, but after the Fire Department ‎

reviewed it, the boulevard got shrunk a lot because they had to widen the ‎

one‎-‎way road to accommodate the fire trucks‎. ‎There was a code they ‎

needed to respect, but he thought there were things they could look at‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Schroeder also mentioned that they had to look at maintenance and ‎

rehabilitation of the older areas, such as Brooklands‎. ‎They had to do ‎

something so those types of areas did not deteriorate‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek agreed, ‎

and said that went along with their next topic regarding sub‎-‎areas and ‎

targeted plans‎. ‎Staff felt that there were areas in town that could use a ‎

little extra energy and review, and they needed some type of concept so ‎

when someone did redevelop, the areas could become more organized ‎

and more in line with aesthetics‎. ‎They could look at Brooklands‎. ‎

Chairperson Boswell noted that they had been working on the Auburn ‎

Road corridor for years, and it had not really gotten anywhere‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎

Schroeder pointed out that when Avon Township started building up, Troy ‎

had gone through growing pains and developed standards‎. ‎People ‎

drifted from Troy to Avon Township, and the standards were adopted from ‎

Troy‎. ‎The planner in Troy was strong about parking, because he had ‎

been a planner in Detroit‎. ‎He looked at Royal Oak and saw parking ‎

problems, and that was where all the parking requirements came from, ‎

and it was overkill‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek noted Mr‎. ‎Breuckman‎’‎s comparison of the City and a farm, and ‎

said that the City was planning for the ultimate change and how they ‎

wanted the City to be was the question‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman talked about the ‎

planning done ‎30 ‎years ago, and they had pretty much hit the mark, but ‎

they had to figure out where they wanted to be in the next ‎10‎-‎20 ‎years and ‎

how they should stimulate redevelopment‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman added that it was interesting when Mr‎. ‎Rosen mentioned ‎

Bloomfield Hills as one of the models‎. ‎When Mr‎. ‎Breuckman talked ‎

about reducing infrastructure, he did not mean reduce quality, and a lot of ‎

the residential neighborhoods in Bloomfield Hills and Franklin were a ‎

decent picture of how roads should be treated in a reasonable and ‎

attractive manner‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Rosen said that it was a middle manager‎’‎s town‎. ‎It had engineers ‎

and managers from the auto companies and similar businesses‎. ‎He ‎

stated that Franklin was different‎. ‎If they could, they would wall off the ‎

community and not let anyone in‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman agreed, and said he ‎

was just alluding to how they built the roads‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Rosen said that was ‎

intentional‎. ‎There was not enough room for more than two cars at once‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Reece remarked that before they patted themselves on the back so ‎

much, he felt that they had to be cognizant of potential looming crises the ‎

City had from a revenue standpoint‎. ‎While the residential market was ‎

supposed to drive their revenues and the ability to do all the things the ‎

residents wanted, the reality was that the residential market was a long ‎

way from coming back‎. ‎He thought they really needed to be cognizant of ‎

the redevelopment on the commercial side and help to push those ‎

owners to do something‎. ‎He mentioned the parcel across from Papa ‎

Joe‎’‎s, and said that it was an old, tired property‎. ‎He felt that it was a ‎

significant reason why its value was so much lower than the Papa Joe‎’‎s ‎

development‎. ‎He suggested that they had to learn to accommodate, ‎

within reason, and look at the ‎21‎st century, in terms of redevelopment for ‎

some of those parcels‎. ‎They had to look at parking and the flow internally ‎

and gas stations being requested‎. ‎He thought it was important to look at ‎

those types of opportunities as continued revenue growth for the City, ‎

while the housing market hopefully came back‎. ‎He believed that it would ‎

be a significant period of time before the property values got back to ‎

where they wanted them to be, if at all‎. ‎Keeping true to their roots from ‎

where they started and the good job they did also meant reaching out to ‎

developers and retail‎-‎commercial developers to help the City generate ‎

revenue‎. ‎They should help improve the areas that would help improve ‎

the City‎. ‎He commented that there were just as many residents that were ‎

outside of Rochester Hills that sometimes felt it was walled off from some ‎

of the other communities‎. ‎They had somewhat of an elitist air about ‎

themselves sometimes, too‎. ‎Chairperson Boswell agreed, and said it was ‎

even greater ‎20 ‎years ago‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Reece said that when he moved to ‎

Rochester Hills in ‎1982‎, it was very much like that‎.‎

Chairperson Boswell also mentioned that the M‎-‎59 ‎corridor would be ‎

crucial, and they needed to get the right development there‎. ‎He ‎

commented that they would keep trying‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Klomp said that he appreciated Mr‎. ‎Breuckman‎’‎s presentation‎. ‎It was ‎

an interesting way to think about the uses and maxing out yield and ‎

value‎. ‎He agreed with Mr‎. ‎Reece that they were looking at some pretty ‎

dismal projections in terms of revenue‎. ‎With inflation, they were talking ‎

about ‎1‎-‎1 1‎/‎2 ‎% ‎for the next few years and they would bottom next year ‎

and see moderate growth thereafter‎. ‎He felt that it was important to talk ‎

about it, and they could not just study the statistics‎. ‎The more they ‎

looked at different things that affected what was happening, they saw ‎

things that were not factored in, for example, the adverse affect of ‎

commercial development or overdevelopment and what it did to a ‎

residential neighborhood‎. ‎He appreciated talking about redeveloping the ‎

current places they had‎. ‎They knew how valuable their green space and ‎

parks were‎. ‎They were addressed by most of the residents in the survey‎. ‎

He got emails from people about walking down the Clinton River Trail and ‎

the amenities they had‎. ‎Those were some of the major reasons why ‎

people chose to live in Rochester Hills and chose to pay a premium‎. ‎The ‎

revenue was based off of the tax base, and those were the kinds of things ‎

they needed to be mindful of‎. ‎They needed to determine how they could ‎

take a space and make it earn tax revenue‎. ‎They could have a piece of ‎

property and see how much revenue a building might earn, but they had ‎

to consider the adverse affect ‎- ‎that development compiled with all of the ‎

other developments might be creating much more traffic and people ‎

might not want to live here and rather move north‎. ‎That would not be ‎

surprising; it had been happening for the last ‎150 ‎years with metro Detroit‎. ‎

Cities needed tax revenue, and they encouraged development and build ‎

bigger and wider streets to a point where it became undesirable‎. ‎He cited ‎

Birmingham and Royal Oak as exceptions, but indicated that there was a ‎

reoccurring problem‎. ‎Regarding the Master Land Use Plan, he focused ‎

on the importance of the Rochester Road corridor and believed they ‎

should continue to try to reduce curb cuts and make it a safer ‎

thoroughfare‎. ‎They needed to continue to bring and promote ‎

development closer to the roads‎. ‎As people traveled north on Rochester ‎

Road, it appeared as a wide open, vast, freeway‎-‎looking road‎. ‎The ‎

speeds and noise picked up and it was undesirable in the community‎. ‎

He had mentioned Rochester and Avon, on the southwest corner, which ‎

was a huge parking lot ‎11 ‎months out of the year‎. ‎He did not think that ‎

looked good‎. ‎There was a similar issue at Hampton Village, which had a ‎

huge parking lot‎. ‎The Auburn Rd‎. ‎corridor was dangerous traveling ‎

through several spots, and that was a concern‎. ‎He said that he ‎

appreciated everyone talking about those issues‎.‎

Ms‎. ‎Brnabic observed that the City had been in a redevelopment stage ‎

for quite a few years‎. ‎When the Master Land Use Plan was redone, it was ‎

a new vision by design, and the City had been tweaking it, which was ‎

positive‎. ‎Ordinance changes had been brought forward, and she thought ‎

that was extremely important‎. ‎As a member of the Zoning Board of ‎

Appeals, she became aware of difficulties that people had trying to ‎

improve their homes, not just because of the economy, but because of ‎

the City‎’‎s Ordinances‎. ‎Recently, the Planning Commission was reviewing ‎

gas stations and how the setback requirements made it virtually ‎

impossible for existing owners to update and stay viable‎. ‎In reference to ‎

the older areas of the community, people were not able to put on ‎

additions or improve because of nonconforming issues‎. ‎The City was ‎

making it impossible for people with older homes to add on because of ‎

the way the Ordinance was written‎. ‎She felt that they could continue to be ‎

consistent, but also be open‎-‎minded at the same time‎. ‎She was glad that ‎

people now had the ability to increase a nonconformity and improve their ‎

homes‎. ‎Some of the situations had been ridiculous ‎- ‎the setbacks denied ‎

the ability to do something that was not hideous looking‎. ‎She talked ‎

about garage height, and the fact that people could not match the pitches ‎

of their homes, and she was glad to see that they continued to review and ‎

re‎-‎evaluate the processes and Ordinances‎. ‎It would not be good to allow ‎

the older areas of the community to deteriorate, because it could ‎

eventually affect the quality of the entire City‎. ‎She thought it was good to ‎

update the Plan and to continue tweaking it, and she agreed that it could ‎

be done in‎-‎house for the Planning Commission and City Council‎’‎s review ‎

and approval‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Hooper thought that it was a great thing that the major appointed ‎

boards could meet with the elected representatives‎. ‎He encouraged that ‎

Council meets with the Zoning Board of Appeals and the Historic Districts ‎

Commission‎. ‎Council did meet with HDC about four years ago, and he ‎

felt the major boards should meet periodically, because of the valuable ‎

input that came from it‎. ‎Regarding the Master Land Use Plan update, he ‎

did not see a major re‎-‎write for it‎. ‎They did a major one last time, adding ‎

form‎-‎based zoning‎. ‎Right after it was adopted in ‎2007‎, the economy ‎

tanked, and they had not seen any fruits of that zoning‎. ‎He would like to ‎

know about plusses or minuses of that type of zoning, and he asked Staff ‎

if they had seen any developers doing that‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek noted that Staff had discussions with the owners of Hampton ‎

Village ‎(‎Target, Best Buy‎). ‎They had begun thinking about how to pump ‎

new business into the center‎. ‎They knew they had a somewhat obsolete ‎

design‎. ‎The building was about ‎4‎,‎900 ‎feet long, and it did not function ‎

like a center should‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman had done some concepts for the ‎

owners, to show them how they could bring the wings of the building in or ‎

make it like The Village or a main street‎. ‎They could create another ‎

thru‎-‎way, for example‎. ‎It had really piqued their interest‎. ‎They liked the ‎

form‎-‎based concept as well, but they were not at the point where they ‎

could put money into design plans yet‎. ‎They, as well as the owners of ‎

North Hill, knew they had to reinvent themselves to stay alive in the ‎

market‎. ‎He agreed that form based development had not been tested, ‎

but there was interest for redevelopment‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman added that the money was not there to do big things any ‎

more, but Staff has had some inquiries from people who had small sites‎. ‎

By using the form standards rather than the conventional standards, it ‎

would open possibilities on the small sites to do some improvements ‎

incrementally‎. ‎He thought they would start to see more of that type of ‎

activity‎. ‎He felt that no one would build apartment complexes, but there ‎

was increasing demand for renting‎. ‎There were different demographics ‎

going forward‎. ‎Rental units got a lot of value from what they were close to‎. ‎

No one really rented something because it was a great apartment if it was ‎

not close to something‎. ‎They should start looking at creating a more ‎

complete and interesting place in some of the shopping center parking ‎

lots‎. ‎It was a long way out, but that was a real possibility and a way to start ‎

to accommodate some additional rental units, by converting parking ‎

spaces to a development that had synergy‎. ‎He maintained that it would ‎

take a while, and it was an education process to get people with the strip ‎

center mentality of the last ‎35 ‎years on board‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Hooper asked about senior housing and needs‎. ‎He noted the facility ‎

recently approved on Meadowfield Drive and one on South Boulevard‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek said that the facility on South Boulevard had been quiet, but ‎

they were active with their landscape plans and had been working with the ‎

neighbors‎. ‎There were some problems with financing, but it was turning ‎

around‎. ‎The City had heard from American House on Adams, and they ‎

wanted to finally do the building in front‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek stressed that the ‎

senior housing market was strong‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Hooper asked about South Blvd‎. ‎

and Crooks‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek said they were still trying to market it, but there ‎

were no bites‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Dettloff asked if the City did a market analysis to identify where there ‎

were some voids‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek asked what type‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman asked Mr‎. ‎

Dettloff if he meant a gap analysis, which he confirmed‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman ‎

said that one was done with the Master Plan, and he was amazed that ‎

supply and demand had lined up‎. ‎He would re‎-‎take a look at it‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Tisdel brought up demographics, and claimed that society was aging‎. ‎

It was fortunate that Japan, Europe and China were older than the U‎.‎S‎. ‎

China had a huge demographic crisis looming ‎- ‎there were ‎41‎% ‎fewer ‎

Generation X‎’‎ers than there were baby boomers‎. ‎Expecting them to ‎

come in and fill the infrastructure that was built to satisfy the needs of ‎

baby boomers was not going to happen‎. ‎The echo boomers were about ‎

the same size as the baby boomers ‎(‎his kids‎’ ‎generation‎)‎, but they were ‎

doing things entirely different‎. ‎They could not expect those kids to come ‎

in and buy four‎-‎bedroom, two‎-‎and‎-‎a‎-‎half bathroom colonials on ‎

15‎-‎20‎,‎000 ‎square foot lots‎. ‎They did not seem to have any interest‎. ‎

Relative to retail, his ‎26‎-‎year old daughter‎-‎in‎-‎law was a manager of social ‎

marketing for shopathome‎.‎com‎. ‎They were not running to the stores to ‎

get their day to day needs; it was more of a shopping adventure that ‎

involved a latte or sitting by a fountain‎. ‎The City had been well served, ‎

but the global recession was kind of the end of that one way average ‎

projector from ‎1947‎, when Europe, Japan and Russia did not have ‎

railroads, bridges, manufacturing, etc‎. ‎The days that the City would get ‎

over the ‎2008 ‎drop in residential properties and get back on the one‎-‎way ‎

trajectory track were gone‎. ‎They had an extremely educated population, ‎

and they needed to take advantage of that and generate some light ‎

industry, testing, modeling, high tech, and generate more tax revenues ‎

from global sales rather than relying on the residents‎’ ‎property taxes and ‎

retail taxes‎. ‎He felt that the cities that could attract and retain two‎-‎parent ‎

families and figure out how to take care of an educated population that ‎

was five times the national average of post graduate degrees and bring ‎

businesses in that could generate sales and taxes nationally and ‎

internationally from people other than the City‎’‎s residents was important‎. ‎

He also thought that would be the huge challenge‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Reece thought one of the keys to that concept was attracting the ‎

twenty‎-‎six year‎-‎olds and the thirty‎-‎year olds that lived a different lifestyle ‎

than the baby boomers, and find something that would bring them into the ‎

community‎. ‎They should look at Rochester Road and throw something ‎

different to the wind to the younger generation and keep them down on the ‎

farm‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman said that he was one of the last Generation X‎’‎ers, and he ‎

thought that there were a few things the City really had going well for it that ‎

set it apart from the other similar places‎. ‎Downtown Rochester was an ‎

absolute gem for the City and it was key for Rochester Hills‎. ‎The bike ‎

paths were probably the best or second best thing the City did‎. ‎It attracted ‎

educated, active people‎. ‎He saw people who lived in Royal Oak that ‎

married and had kids who moved to Rochester Hills‎. ‎That boded well for ‎

the future, and they needed to keep capitalizing on that‎. ‎Part of the ‎

problem for younger kids was that they did not have jobs‎. ‎If the City had ‎

old, tired retail centers, it was blighting‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Rosen said that much of Mr‎. ‎Breuckman‎’‎s data for retail showed that ‎

age played as big a role in the taxable value per acre than anything‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎

Breuckman agreed, and said that was because a lot of disposable was ‎

built, and they needed buildings that would stand for ‎150 ‎or ‎250 ‎years‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Tisdel referred to ‎“‎human scale‎” ‎buildings close to the road, and he ‎

found those design standards interesting‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman felt that design ‎

standards were something they should jump on‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Yukon asked Mr‎. ‎Breuckman if he was considering proposing more ‎

flexible use in the updated Master Plan‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman said that a lot of ‎

those standards were in the Ordinance already, and he thought they just ‎

needed to work around the edges‎. ‎It was an option currently, done to test ‎

the waters, but everything tanked and they were not able to do that‎. ‎They ‎

could work with the standards they had‎. ‎He felt that design guidelines ‎

would be important, for smaller parcels, and making sure people did not ‎

do something that harmed or set a bad precedent‎. ‎There would be more ‎

reinvestment for a while than redevelopment, and guiding things ‎

incrementally was important, and that was where design standards ‎

mattered more‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Kaltsounis pointed out that in ‎2005‎, because of the scope of the ‎

Master Plan changes, they used an outside consultant to write the form ‎

based zoning, and it was done by Mr‎. ‎Breuckman at the time‎. ‎He knew ‎

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman was a valuable resource‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Kaltsounis said that he had ‎

been waiting for five years to see what those buildings would look like, and ‎

they had a good start having Mr‎. ‎Breuckman on board with the City‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek stated that the ‎2005 ‎Master Plan had served the City well‎. ‎

They also did a Natural Features Inventory as part of the Plan, which had ‎

become instrumental in how the Green Space Committee identified sites‎. ‎

It was also the basis for the Steep Slope Ordinance to preserve the ‎

hillsides‎. ‎Also, a component of the Plan was an economic development ‎

strategy‎. ‎It was a thorough Plan, and he felt that it still stood‎. ‎He added ‎

that the aging population would drive future housing demands and styles‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi said that he was excited with all the discussion and great ‎

points‎. ‎He recalled talking about design standards‎. ‎He strongly believed ‎

that Rochester Hills was a great community‎. ‎In ‎2008‎, many communities ‎

lost value, and they should take a look at how they compared with those ‎

communities‎. ‎He believed that they did far better than many ‎

communities in Michigan, and he believed that it was the residential that ‎

helped‎. ‎Troy and Warren, for example, had a lot of commercial, and ‎

Rochester Hills had high‎-‎end residential and highly educated families ‎

and professionals‎. ‎The natural features and other amenities also helped, ‎

and they had to make sure to always sustain those‎. ‎He did not think ‎

residential values would come back all the way‎. ‎He recalled a proposed ‎

development for the corner of Adams and South Boulevard ‎(‎Lorna ‎

Stone‎)‎, and said it was a great design that never came to fruition‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎

Anzek advised that the person that put it together was trying to ‎

reassemble the land to try again‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi thought that would be ‎

great‎. ‎What the developer did initially was propose retail and work‎-‎live ‎

units above‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek said that there was also some office, apartments ‎

and single‎-‎family homes‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi thought that type of creativity ‎

should be brought in‎. ‎They could add one or two floors, such as for loft ‎

living, for the younger generation not looking for a big colonial‎. ‎They ‎

were going to Royal Oak for that, but they could be coming to Rochester ‎

Hills‎. ‎As their families grew, they could move into a larger home and still ‎

stay in the community‎. ‎If he was going to do something with the Master ‎

Plan, he would go in that direction‎. ‎He thought that form‎-‎based zoning ‎

was a neat idea, but they obviously did not know the benefits yet‎. ‎He ‎

recalled the great plan Bordine‎’‎s brought forward, but that was also hit by ‎

the economy‎. ‎They showed a mixed‎-‎use development with loft‎-‎type units‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi felt that they should bring in those types of new, creative ‎

things‎. ‎Other states had them more, and he felt that if Rochester Hills ‎

did, they would see a difference‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi asked Mr‎. ‎Breuckman if the corner of Rochester and ‎

Barclay was high in value because of Rochester Rd‎. ‎or if it was because ‎

the location collected more rent‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman said that it was a newer ‎

center, but he did not know whether it was related to the amount of money ‎

Crust Pizza spent on its oven, for example, or the fact that the vitamin ‎

store was paying a lot of rent‎. ‎He was not sure‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi did not ‎

think the stores themselves were of any more value than those at The ‎

Village‎. ‎In fact, he felt that the stores at The Village were of higher ‎

product value, and there was benefit to having a lot of stores to walk to ‎

and shop‎. ‎He would like to know what drove the value of Barclay Square ‎

versus The Village or Papa Joe‎’‎s‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek said that when he first came to the City about ‎12 ‎years ago, he ‎

asked what the most valuable piece of land was‎. ‎The Assessor at the ‎

time told him that the highest assessed property per acre was the center ‎

just north of M‎-‎59 ‎on Rochester Rd‎.- ‎where C‎. ‎J‎. ‎Mahoney‎’‎s was‎. ‎That ‎

was because they received the highest rents‎. ‎It was before The Village ‎

was built and Barclay Square was not there, and he thought it was a ‎

non‎-‎descript center, but people wanted to be close to M‎-‎59 ‎and on ‎

Rochester Rd‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi felt that was the reason more than ‎

anything for the higher value‎. ‎

Regarding residential, Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi stated that there were high and ‎

low areas‎. ‎He asked if Staff had looked at what the City could do in the ‎

low areas to boost values‎.‎

Discussed

Mr‎. ‎Breuckman thought that might be a natural segway to the discussion ‎

for Small Area Plans‎. ‎He said that he and Mr‎. ‎Anzek had been talking ‎

about this for quite some time‎. ‎They both agreed that the ‎2007 ‎Master ‎

Plan was still a great framework, and that it did not need a lot of work‎. ‎He ‎

thought they had an opportunity to take a targeted look at small areas ‎

within the City‎. ‎Overall, things in the City were not going to change much‎. ‎

They knew they would not be redeveloping neighborhoods‎. ‎There were ‎

segments of roads ‎- ‎Tienken between the creek and Rochester, for ‎

example‎. ‎It was a busy area with great residential development around it‎. ‎

He and Mr‎. ‎Anzek could come up with areas they felt needed a look that ‎

would not need a long, involved planning process‎. ‎He strongly believed ‎

they had an opportunity to engage the community and have some ‎

grassroots, ground‎-‎up planning processes‎. ‎In order for that to be really ‎

meaningful, it had to come from the residents they could work with and ‎

help implement a plan‎. ‎They talked about a way to spur interest from ‎

residents, which would involve the City putting up some implementation ‎

funding, such as $‎5‎,‎000‎-‎$‎10‎,‎000‎. ‎It could be a great incentive to do the ‎

targeted area plan‎. ‎It might be for a neighborhood group that wanted a ‎

connection to the Trail, for example, or needed sidewalks to a school in ‎

their neighborhood‎. ‎Ideally, residents would submit a proposal and with ‎

Council‎’‎s advocacy, the Planning Department could take on a few areas ‎

each year‎. ‎It would not involve a really long process ‎- ‎perhaps two or ‎

three meetings‎. ‎First, they would meet to identify the problem and come ‎

up with some possibilities; second, Staff would come back with concepts ‎

and they would meet to review them‎. ‎It would be to fill gaps in the Plan ‎

and be meaningful‎. ‎It would be a continuous, rolling process for two or ‎

three areas every year, depending on work load‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek believed there was a very strong need for it‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi ‎

would like to see them grown into the Master Plan, and he felt it could turn ‎

around some of the neighborhoods‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman suggested a ‎

neighborhood might want a corner store they could walk to, but the current ‎

zoning was not set up for that at all‎. ‎If they could do a Small Area Plan ‎

and gap analysis and the residents were involved, it would be a great ‎

start‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek noted that some of the best ways to build consensus for a ‎

vision was to give the residents drawings and ideas with which to react‎. ‎If ‎

the residents were involved, they could begin to gel around an idea‎. ‎He ‎

recalled the Olde Towne area by Brooklands, and he said there had been ‎

four starts in ‎30 ‎years to try to do something with that corridor‎. ‎The City ‎

could never get the owners organized and on board‎. ‎The last serious ‎

attempt was in ‎2004‎. ‎They first met with the owners, but they could not get ‎

them to agree‎. ‎They talked about starting a merchant‎’‎s association to ‎

speak as one voice, but they did not want to be a part‎. ‎That area would be ‎

a tough one to accomplish, but they were not giving up‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Schroeder asked for other area examples‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek offered the area ‎

on the north side of Tienken, from the bowling alley going west‎. ‎There ‎

was a shopping center back ‎100 ‎yards, buildings down in holes, and ‎

driveways that went nowhere‎. ‎There was going to be an improvement to ‎

Tienken, and there was an issue that might involve a total take, because ‎

part of the property provided a driveway to someone behind it‎. ‎It was a ‎

mish‎-‎mash of development‎. ‎Staff thought that if they could do a ‎

redevelopment plan showing how the roads and buildings could be ‎

organized, the ownership there might get interested in bringing that vision ‎

about‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Tisdel added that there was plenty to walk to in that area‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek ‎

noted that the Summit at King‎’‎s Cove was building out‎. ‎There would be ‎

some impacts with the improvement to Tienken Rd‎.‎, but it was an area to ‎

him that was very disorganized‎. ‎There were some other pockets on ‎

Auburn, not just in the Olde Towne area, that could be improved‎. ‎Some ‎

of those could be City‎-‎initiated and with some, they would work with the ‎

neighborhoods‎. ‎It could be as simple as connecting a pathway to a ‎

sidewalk‎. ‎They had to find out what the residents wanted to do‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Hetrick asked Mr‎. ‎Anzek if he wished to focus primarily on residential‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek felt that if it were grass roots initiated, it would be mostly ‎

residential‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Breuckman added that they were anticipating any City ‎

sponsored ones to focus more on areas like the Tienken Rd‎. ‎corridor‎. ‎

Staff would have to brainstorm areas they want to look at that would be ‎

City sponsored‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek knew that as they went through the Master ‎

Plan again, they would be looking at the maps and seeing which areas ‎

needed help‎. ‎That would build the list of sub‎-‎area plans‎. ‎He suggested ‎

that when the Building Department held annual meetings with ‎

Homeowner‎’‎s Associations, Staff could be there to present findings‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi felt that it was a good idea to look at the neighborhoods, ‎

and he mentioned the area of Adams and Auburn‎. ‎There was ‎

commercial and residential and a lot of curb cuts‎. ‎He thought it was also ‎

a great idea to see about getting $‎5‎-‎10‎,‎000 ‎to help with the process‎.‎

2012-0188

City Council's Goals and Objectives and how the Planning Commission can ‎

assist in obtainment‎

Mr‎. ‎Rosen said that knowing they would talk about this item, he took ‎

another look at Council‎’‎s goals and objectives‎. ‎Someone might think that ‎

the first place the Commission could help would be with economic ‎

impact, but he stated that it was exactly what they were doing by having ‎

the meeting‎. ‎They were providing a sound planning basis for the City to ‎

be able to maintain its character, its value and income stream‎. ‎They had ‎

been doing it for ‎25 ‎years, and he did not think anything had to change‎. ‎

The City Council would have to tackle public safety, infrastructure ‎

management and fiscal management‎. ‎Community trust and participation ‎

and‎/‎or community neighborhood issues might be a little bit in with what ‎

was planned for the small area plans‎. ‎The biggest problem in the City ‎

was that a lot of people did not trust the City‎. ‎That was a real challenge, ‎

and it might help especially if they said what they were going to do and do ‎

what they said‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Reece wondered if there was a way to better educate the general ‎

population‎. ‎He felt that the sense of distrust, which he even saw at ‎

Planning Commission when someone complained about not getting a ‎

notice for something, made him uncomfortable‎. ‎He did not want people ‎

to think they were doing something on the sly‎. ‎If there was a way to ‎

educate the public a little better on what the requirements were, who got ‎

notices and why, even if it was on the website, it would help streamline that ‎

perception back to where it should be‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Rosen agreed that there had been some real issues, and that ‎

anything they could do to make that interplay work would be to the whole ‎

City‎’‎s advantage‎. ‎They all had a job to do‎. ‎In general, the fact that the ‎

Planning Commission would be proceeding with the Master Land Use ‎

Plan, and they were having a meeting and talking about things, that they ‎

were at least in the same book‎. ‎He felt that was what the Planning ‎

Commission could do to help Council‎.‎

Chairperson Boswell stressed that the Planning Commission did not ‎

make snap decisions, especially with contentious requests‎. ‎They talked ‎

about something, and if needed, postponed a decision until they were ‎

satisfied‎. ‎They had always been that way‎.‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek felt that it was important for the Planning Commission, since ‎

that body oversaw the CIP, which included infrastructure and ‎

transportation, to see that what they had been doing was very much in line ‎

with Council‎’‎s goals and objectives‎. ‎It had been interesting to see the ‎

evolution‎. ‎Staff started to bring prospective development and clients to ‎

the Planning Commission before they even submitted any concrete ‎

plans‎. ‎That allowed the Planning Commission to weigh in early on‎. ‎The ‎

best thing that came out of those early meetings was the advice given by ‎

the Chair or other members to go meet with neighbors before coming ‎

back‎. ‎That had done wonders in terms of keeping people in the know and ‎

educating them‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Kaltsounis believed that it was a recommendation that came out of ‎

the Master Plan‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek said it was an evolution and Mr‎. ‎Boswell‎’‎s ‎

chairmanship seeing the need to get people talking‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Rosen said it ‎

went back to Nick Goulopoulos‎. ‎Chairperson Boswell recalled that Nick ‎

was chair when he first joined‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Rosen agreed that the Planning ‎

Commission had used that very effectively over the years‎. ‎It put a little ‎

push on the developers‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek said that it was important for Staff to ‎

get the developer in front of the Planning Commission early on in the ‎

process, and they could tell them then to meet with the neighbors‎. ‎Staff ‎

could tell them until they were blue in the face, but the developers could ‎

not care less‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi thanked the Planning Commissioners, and said that he ‎

was really impressed with what they did‎. ‎He usually read Minutes from ‎

their meetings, and a lot of the questions he had were asked and ‎

answered‎. ‎The Commissioners had already resolved ‎90‎% ‎of his ‎

questions, and he really appreciated it‎. ‎

Discussed

OPEN DISCUSSION

Regarding the letter from Mr‎. ‎Staran, it was Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi's ‎

understanding that they wanted to ask for another Extension of the ‎

Medical Marihuana Moratorium‎. ‎He questioned whether they would ‎

approve a policy to use marihuana in homes within the intent of the law‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek stated that they had always had that understanding from the ‎

first work session the Planning Commission held‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Hooper asked if ‎

the Moratorium would prohibit a licensed patient from the utilization of ‎

medical marihuana, and Mr‎. ‎Anzek clarified that it did not‎. ‎Staff dealt with ‎

zoning and land use issues, such as dispensaries, growing, selling, ‎

transportation, and so on, and that was the only control the City had‎. ‎

They did not have control inside a private house‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Yalamanchi asked if they had to adopt a policy at this stage‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎

Anzek did not believe so‎. ‎He felt that they were very much in line by ‎

doing nothing, and he thought Mr‎. ‎Staran was providing that direction‎. ‎A ‎

Moratorium gave the City the ability to tell a grower that he could not use ‎

warehouse space‎. ‎There was uncertainty in State and Federal law‎. ‎Last ‎

year, the Feds did a ‎180 ‎and took the issue from non‎-‎enforcement to ‎

aggressive enforcement, with letters that Mr‎. ‎Breuckman found as a ‎

consultant and provided to Mr‎. ‎Staran‎. ‎They threatened prosecution of ‎

public officials that endorsed or approved the uses, and Mr‎. ‎Anzek did not ‎

want to put them in that line of liability‎. ‎They felt that the continued path of ‎

an extended Moratorium was the correct way to go‎. ‎There had been no ‎

movement for Staff to give the members any other recommendations as ‎

to how to handle the matter‎. ‎He noted that it would be put on a Planning ‎

Commission agenda soon so it could come to City Council‎. ‎

Ms‎. ‎Lorraine McGoldrick, a member from the audience, rose to speak‎. ‎

She advised that she worked in the field of substance abuse and ‎

prevention‎. ‎She felt that there was a very good chance that people would ‎

get enough signatures to put legalizing marihuana on the ballot‎. ‎The ‎

House legislation that just passed did nothing to help the City regarding ‎

the sale of marihuana and did not address the core issues‎. ‎She stated ‎

that she followed the matter very closely as a professional‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Kaltsounis recalled that a few years ago, Auburn Hills was going to let ‎

people have operations, but they reversed that and instituted a ‎

Moratorium and would not allow anyone to do anything‎. ‎That was based ‎

on the lack of case results in court and the Federal and State laws‎. ‎He ‎

remarked that it was hard to believe it had been a year, but nothing had ‎

changed‎. ‎Mr‎. ‎Anzek added that it started to become a local issue in ‎

2009‎. ‎No other cities had model ordinances prepared, and there still ‎

were none‎. ‎Court cases were in appeal, but they did not know what the ‎

outcomes would be‎. ‎

Mr‎. ‎Anzek thanked everyone for their input, and indicated that Staff got ‎

some good direction and guidance for going forward‎. ‎

NEXT MEETING DATE

Chairperson Boswell reminded the Planning Commissioners that the next ‎

Regular Meeting was scheduled for June ‎5‎, ‎2012‎.‎

ADJOURNMENT

Hearing no further business to come before the Planning Commission and ‎

City Council‎. ‎and upon motion by Kaltsounis, Chairperson Boswell ‎

adjourned the Special Joint Meeting at ‎9‎:‎00 ‎p‎.‎m‎.‎

_____________________________‎

William F‎. ‎Boswell Chairperson‎

Rochester Hills Planning Commission‎

_____________________________‎

Greg Hooper, President‎

Rochester Hills City Council‎

_____________________________‎

Maureen Gentry, Recording Secretary‎